Church Plant Chat

Revitalisation Review: Asking the hard questions (Part 2)

• Paul Pavlou • Season 5 • Episode 55

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Episode 8: Asking the Hard Questions (Part 2)


Episode Summary
Continuing from Part 1, this episode dives deeper into the art and practice of asking hard questions. We reflect on how asking them—of ourselves and our churches—can lead to breakthrough moments.


Key Topics Covered
·       When the right question changes everything

·       Examples of turning points sparked by difficult questions

·       Why honest evaluation beats false encouragement

·       Discerning the questions beneath the surface

·       How curiosity leads to clarity and courage


Reflection Questions
·       What have been the most powerful questions in your leadership journey?

·       Where is your church avoiding necessary conversations?

·       What are the questions behind the questions in your context?

·       How do you create a culture of curiosity and honesty?

·       Where might asking the right question unlock the next step?


Connect & Continue the Conversation
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Email: churchplantchat@gmail.com

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to part two of asking myself the hard questions. I hope you found the last episode helpful. As you may have found with the last episode, there'll be some overlap across these two episodes, with some of the learnings across both, but also the themes that have been throughout this podcast season, as these two episodes really are giving a broader sweep of the learnings that we've previously dialed into. So let's get into part two. What did you learn from your experience of grafting or revitalization? Well, we said it before, preparation is everything. Get everyone involved from the start is everything. Get everyone involved from the start. Secondly, revitalisation or grafting and the change process that comes with it cannot be sped along or coerced by the pressures of money or grant funders. We started some things prematurely due to funders' expectations and timelines. This cost us a lot relationally and spiritually in how we were trying to walk in pace with the spirit but felt the pressure to do things which, quite frankly, we nor the existing church were ready for, and I had to backpedal a lot due to this and you know my responsibility should have been actually to push back more early on. Next, the congregation that's being inherited or woven into are fiercely protective, defensive and invested in what they have built prior to a graft entering in. You know, this is or has been their church. Who are we to come and join in? Many had the perception that because we came in with a handful of people, perception that because we came in with a handful of people and paid staff, they thought it meant that we thought what they had done in the past was kind of rubbish. And so the use of the right language is really powerful. You know, using terminology like remake rather than revitalise has been quite important to help people understand. This isn't about the past being a failure, but rather us wanting to join in with where it's at, so to remake it into what it can be in today's context, it's a very sensitive work.

Speaker 1:

Next thing grafting in or revitalization isn't just about weaving into what you're inheriting, at least not in the way we've approached it. We've initiated lots of blank canvas plant elements like a brand new team starting things up. A new service starting up quite quickly. New missional activities starting up as well as weaving together. A new service starting up quite quickly. New missional activities starting up as well as weaving together a new group of people with existing across services activities and pcc weaving together has also taken place across cultural change, the how and why of what we do, governance change at pcc level and all the changes in decision making and power dynamics that trickle down from that. Infrastructure change ie building new infrastructure takes time, but having to remap old infrastructure ran parallel to this, and so every operational change has a cultural implication. This can be very draining when an existing culture or cohort of people weren't ripe for that change to be taking place.

Speaker 1:

Next thing values and actions outweigh vision and words. I found that speaking vision to people we inherited hasn't counted for as much as I thought it would. They want to see us put the work in and live out our values. They're not as interested in big picture. I don't know if this is an estates thing or if it's just our context, but what I've realised here really it's that it's local parish ministry serving local parish people. The big picture stuff hasn't really gained as much traction as maybe I've been used to in other contexts.

Speaker 1:

Next thing it can be a slow burn. If a blank canvas plant is fireworks, then a graft or revitalization is a slow burning candle. Therefore, finding a pace has been tricky due to the cultural differences and values, and pacing in this way can be conflicting, as mentioned, with funding pressures or even your own personality. If you're a very driven, fast-paced individual, it's worth being prepared for that and recognizing that you're going to have to develop a little bit of patience at times. Okay, what did I need? Well, a greater understanding of the picture and story on the ground was definitely something that I needed, and it's on me not doing enough of my own homework to actually develop that understanding. I needed greater input, support and preparing of the way from the diocese and their communication and support to and of the sending church, with paving the way for me, the planter of the sending church, with paving the way for me, the planter, and for the way to be prepared ahead of us. Grafting in I mean things like helping the existing congregation to get to the place where they accept that some things are going to have to be let go of in order to move forwards. Navigating the process of change with the existing congregation, making governance changes before the planter arrives in, so that the PCC is more balanced, financial understanding and functionality to be clearly assessed before the planter arrives, for an agreement on changes to be made almost a covenantal kind of thing and the freedom to move at a slower pace, without pressures of funders pushing for timeline and results, essentially needing funders to understand the way of the land better before investing in this project and, as a result, to have a more bespoke timeline and setup mapped out before I arrived and recognizing that a revitalization has a very different pace and trajectory to a blank canvas startup. And also to have someone walking alongside me from day one who has maybe led a similar project, to use them as a soundboard, someone to pray with, to even come and help with certain discussions at pccs. That would have been really helpful, some sort of planting buddy, but I'm going to talk a bit about that in the pastoral scaffolding episode coming next.

Speaker 1:

What do I wish I had known before starting? Well, a few things. One I wish I'd known, uh, just how lacking the existing congregation were in the knowledge of what was expected from me, from funders and the diocese, but also of them. I wish I'd known more about the health of the church before coming in. I've realised our project really here has been about helping them to grow in their health, so a health assessment would have been good. To grow in their health, so a health assessment would have been good. I wish I'd known, uh, what clear expectations I should have asked for from the sending church and the diocese before entering, so what I expected of them. I wish I'd known more about what was precious to the people I inherited and what their history was. You know their hurts, their fears, their successes, like a healthy church assessment of my own. You know some sort of survey or question given to people ahead of my arrival so that there was good understanding about who they were and what they were about. Or maybe just a series of sit downs, you know, with a cup of tea I could have done that a lot better.

Speaker 1:

I wish I'd known them more, basically before we got going and it's been hard to take the time to do this once I migrated in because there's been a lot of pressure to initiate these blank canvas elements, recruit team and all that's been back to front. Really I've kind of I've had to be a strategic organizer, apostolic catalyst, minded, before I've been able to be past the teacher and this has been costly and it's been clunky and there's been a lot of backpedaling for that, when really it would have been good to have been past the teacher and out of that place to kind of let the strategy and organization and catalyst kind of stuff develop out of the relationship that comes from that teaching and communication. But that's also learning what kind of leader you are. Okay, so I wish I'd known someone that, uh, well, I wish I'd known. I wish there had been someone to pass on to me here. You know there wasn't a leader in post for me to take over from. Um, you know, I took it on towards the end of the last lockdown back in COVID days, so there was a bit of mess, uh, processes and bits of information were scattered and it was messy. You know the the very early days have been were really about, you know, getting your house in order kind of role, and from there it's been about me relaying new foundations for the next leader. Basically, I wish I'd known what the funder's process and setup was like and the intensity that it requires. It's not necessarily a bad thing. I've tried to be careful to frame it well. It's not a negative thing in that sense but it's really worth being aware of what your revitalization or plant could look like, depending on those who you're accountable to and the kind of metrics that are being under that sort of mode of working or if you're not, and either way, working out how to become equipped to handle it. If you want to take something on in that way, ok.

Speaker 1:

Next question, the one I've been looking forward to how has God been moving through it all? How has God been moving through it all? Well, essentially, god moves despite the mistakes or challenges or lack of readiness, despite all of the learnings I've mentioned. Where it's been clunky at times, god has been good and we have seen some amazing things emerge here, and I'm just going to list a few, because you know I've listed a few things that have been hard, so I feel it's only right that I list a few things that have been really good and a blessing. And this isn't even everything, you know. It's just a few things, but it's nice to celebrate. So here they are.

Speaker 1:

The local community are catching the culture of generosity, voluntarily donating to contextualize activities that we're doing. The staff team have been growing and developing. Some of them haven't even worked in a church before, and so it's been amazing to see them grow in their leadership and giftings, people that we inherited. Some of them are kind of having their faith reborn again and beginning in new ways of being engaged in discipleship, whereas before maybe they were just kind of floating and attending. That's been wonderful to see. There's been numerical growth, you know we've probably doubled in number on a Sunday from week to week and we also, alongside that, have a thriving monthly messy church service. Now the community are awakening to the local church once again and that we have something to offer. We've been involved with all of the local schools, none of which are Church of England schools, but we've been in all of them, we've been governors at them and building really good relationships. We've been blessing the local community and seeing relationships with them grow and flourish, both young and old. And there is cultural change developing for the better in the church and the PCC.

Speaker 1:

Slow but steady health has been coming in throughout the church's life there. Alpha's up and running. Before that it hadn't been existent for about 20 years. In the church there have been various home groups started and new leaders emerging out of them. We've had both adult and youth baptisms. We've had youth confirmations, children getting confirmed, financial giving has increased and Social media presence is up, awakening people to things. We've had prodigals returning to church, people giving their life to Jesus and internally, a revitalisation of faith stirring and many more things and stories that could be shared. You know it's been amazing to look back and see what God has been doing despite the things that have been challenging. Look back and see what God has been doing despite the things that have been challenging, so moving forwards.

Speaker 1:

You know, thinking about sending churches or resource churches and church plant and church revitalisation, sort of infrastructure stuff and these are just piddly thoughts from me. Really it's way above my pay grade all of that, but it's just stuff that I reflect on. I can only speak from my own experience. But here's just a couple of things which I think could maybe bolster the work we do within planting, around revitalization, within theological training. I know there are some theological colleges which do talk about planting much more and leadership, but not all of them do and even the ones that do, I think could probably unpack further about revitalization dynamics versus normal blank canvas dynamics. So a course and program and study on that I think would be really beneficial for emerging leaders and planters.

Speaker 1:

Second thing which I'm going to talk about in the next episode is a pastoral planting infrastructure to be developed across all of our diocese. If you're in the church of england or if you're not across your own network. Um, I've got some ideas which I've written down, but you know things like designated pastoral roles. You know plant partners across a diocese. You know for these roles to have oversight and specific purpose of walking alongside planters and resource church leaders in a given deanery or diocesan area and to facilitate ongoing graft leader and church communities. Someone to act as a soundboard. Someone to help create syllabuses across different diocesan networks to aid in retreats and care for planters and their families and how they can holistically look after them.

Speaker 1:

I know there are various roles I can only speak for the Church of England within the Church of England that do this sort of thing and touch on it. Again, I'm probably very ignorant to this stuff. This stuff might already be happening and I think it's probably different depending on which diocese you're in. But it's just me kind of highlighting what I think would be good if it's not already happening or if it is, how it could be shaped further and also prep for plant grafts to be further established. So a pastoral scaffold or toolkit toolkit rather, or loose plan for sending churches and their graft process to be rolled out with a diocesan team. This is also something I'm going to talk about in the next episode. Again, it might be something that's already done and I'm just not aware of it. Above my pay grade, that's fine, happy, happy to admit I've been ignorant, but I'll share my thoughts on that in the next episode anyway.

Speaker 1:

So, to wrap up part two of this two part episode, a few questions to consider. One how much do you know about the history of the church that you're stepping in to be part of revitalising, including things like what's been precious to the people you're joining in with? Number two has a church health audit been carried out ahead of you entering? Number three could you source someone with an outside perspective to help you think through what you might need ahead of you going into your project? Number four have you got someone to walk alongside you as you enter this role? Five how is God already moving in this space?

Speaker 1:

Thank you for listening. If you didn't know already, there was an Instagram account for this podcast, which is at churchplantchat, where you can keep up to date with what's happening on the podcast and other bits about planting, but you can also DM me on there if you ever wanted to chat or pray. I can also be contacted at churchplantchat at gmailcom. There are show notes in the episode description. I'd love to connect with you. Please don't hesitate to get in touch if you'd like to thank you for listening and see you next time when we look at the pastoral scaffolding models that I've mentioned here today. See you soon.